Mother Miriam has done a complete 180 on the SSPX: "God has established His Church, his universe, everything on obedience, everything on obedience. Children are to obey their parents, not if their parents are holy and right, in everything but sin. Wives are to submit to their husbands, not because they're holy, not because they're right, but because God has given them that position — again, in everything but sin. Religious are to obey their superiors, whether their superior is right or holier than them, or no matter what it is, they are to obey in everything. And Christ's sheep, which is us, every one of us is to obey the successor of Peter, whether we know for sure he is, whether we agree with him, whether we can point out definite heresy. If he's the Pope, then we obey in everything but sin. We don't come against him. So that's where I left it yesterday, and my heart was completely converted."
Whenever anyone elevates obedience to a virtue above all others I get a whiff of “cultism”.
Is that so? Christ even went so far as to die.
Christus factus est obediens usque ad mortem, morten autem crucis. Quod est....
Maria, He died in obedience to God, not to Pharisees (religious leaders), whom He warned "Woe to you..."
Wer sagt, dass das, was gestern noch gültig war, heute nicht mehr gültig sei, hat entweder gestern oder heute gelogen.
Sie möchte nicht im Schisma sterben. Recht hat sie.
Since arch-schismatic Bartholomew is now, according to papa Prevost: "His Holiness" she (and you) should have no problem with schism unless you suffer from schizophrenia.
Question 14: Should we follow every instruction of the Pope and clergy?
Yes, we should follow each person in authority over us in items related to their responsibility. The Political authorities have the responsibility to formulate and enforce laws which lead to the wellbeing of the society. Should any law of the civil government contradict God’s law or the faith, it will not lead to the wellbeing of the society and is not to be followed. The Pope’s responsibility is to, “religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles." (Vatican I Session 4, Paragraph 6) Should any pronouncement by the Pope contradict the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles, it is outside his responsibility and should not be followed.
That is the clearest way of treating the current situation. Is Leo not the Pope? One needs a long chain of reasoning to both determine that and deal with all the resulting complexities. However, a validly elected Pope (say St Peter) can be in error and St Peter rightly opposed him. We are not saints. We cannot oppose or insult the man in the chair of Peter, but we can listen only to his pronouncements when they "faithfully expound...".
Poor Sister. What she fails to recognize is the post conciliar pontiffs have all taken the route of Luther, and they celebrate him, not condemn him. And these popes, Leo included are all "not in a good position mentally, psychologically doctrinally" and yet we are told to obey! One commenter in this thread who is against the SSPX states " True Catholics remain in the Bark of Peter and fake Catholics abandon ship." I agree 100%. TRUE Catholics remain faithful to the precepts of the Church and the obey the perennial teachings as passed down from the Apostles with the same meaning and same explanation. That describes the SSPX. The post conciliar popes, bishops etc. fail the most basic requirements mentioned in the Canon of the Mass that is " for all who are orthodox in belief and who profess the Catholic and Apostolic Faith" These men are the fake catholics and we are obliged to resist and not obey. Sorry Mother Miriam you are gravely mistaken!
First this is merely your opinion on the matter and nothing more. I would suggest a reading of Church Doctors such as Bellarmine, and Aquinas in regards to pope pronouncements and statements that violate the established deposit of faith along with Apostolic tradition. Our allegiance is to Christ and His truths, not pope's opinions. I find it ironic that VII modernists pronounce SSPX as schismatics when in fact it is Rome that has separated itself from Catholic tradition. As pointed out in previous posts the Synodal church is certainly NOT the Catholic Church, and the pope is not Chairman of the Board yet Prevost is pushing this new concept. So no, I do not accept the Synodal model, nor religious liberty, nor ecumanism, nor the new mass even though the pope believes in those things. That does not legally separate me - or for that matter the SSPX - from the Roman Catholic Church.
Plainly if a father is starving his children and insists on obedience to the starvation his wife and children must defy him. It is a commandment of God to Peter, "Feed my Lambs, Feed my sheep"! "Confirm the brethren". This is not a request but a commandment. When he refuses to feed and refuses to confirm ... plainly he defies his master. Is it no surprise that the wife of older brothers and sisters would do all in their power to be charitable to their husband and father and mitigate the disaster that he is precipitating upon his family. When he returns to his senses will he not be grateful for their support in a period where he was so demented and out of his mind.
As regard the protestant analogy. There is a categorical difference. Martin Luther wanted to make up his own religion and protested the authentic magisterium of the Catholic Church. To defend the authentic magisterium is never disobedience, it is a commendable act of charity.
Does ANYONE remember that the SSPX tried to talk/dialogue with the Pope? Leo refused to even meet with them? Bad Papa! What Father refuses to talk?
"If he's the Pope, then we obey in everything but sin." That's the issue.
He is the pope of a church which now has two heads--the visible Roman Catholic church, and something called the Synodal Church. For any Catholic that has a sensus catholicus, THAT is the issue. I was not baptised, confirmed nor married in the Synodal Church, whatever that is. During these times, my family is simply seeking protection under Our Lady's mantle, and begging her intercession for Our Lord to protect all Catholics of good will. And I don't blame anyone anymore for whatever decisions people are making which at this time gives peace. We are in a time of confusion, but more importantly, suffering, and our prayers most certainly have more merit when offered up in patience and with charity toward all members of the Mystical Body.
Our Lord very plainly said that even though the Seat of Moses had been usurped its authority was binding. Our Lord also did not correct, but rather defended, his disciples when they ignored a specific law about violating the Sabbath.
Oh. Most fortunately Pope St. Peter taught us very well:
We ought to obey God rather than men.
And every rebel schismatic in history has falsly justified their rebellion with the words of Pope St. Peter.
@brhenry
"And every rebel schismatic in history..."
---
1. And every Nazi's motto was: obedience, obedience, obedience. Do you really want to lower our discussion here to such an abysmal level?
2. BTW, you proposition is not true as for example "rebel schismatics" like freemason Bugnini falsely justified their rebellion using "obedience" to the "council", spirit of ecumenism and so on.
So, in fact, not "every rebel schismatic" as some used authority as very useful vehicle of spreading their revolution.
The reason the Pope reject according to his own words is because SSPX refuse to accept Vatican 2 teaching which deviates from what the Church always taught. To obey him means SSPX have to compromise which is morally wrong. To obey not to consecrate Bishops means to do nothing to preserve the Faith and let all the 2 Bishops die eventually and the Tradition could not be preserved as we know Tradition is being crushed by day by the Pope, which is also morally wrong. Nowadays it seems to be Catholic not need to think, just obey and obey the Pope or else. Nevermind what the Church always taught. Good luck with that.
It is true what mother is saying about staying obedient (to God and His Word), but at the same time it isn’t (we can’t obey men rather than God), so all together, the truth and the deception (when you see it as a whole), is nothing but a lie... Sorry. Perhaps she is lying to herself (sorry mother), false obedience is living in a lie.
It’s always been Catholic to obey the pope. Even bad popes. But in history has there ever been photo evidence of a pope publicly partaking (kneeling) in a pagan ceremony? Has a pope ever publicly suggested attitudes have to change before doctrine? Has a pope ever endorsed blessing homosexual relationships, or doubled down on accompanying the divorced and remarried to the communion rail without repentance and sacramental confession? How can people allege there is no crisis, no doubt about who this man in white is?
Leo Francis et al. Are the source of the divisions like FSSP, SSPX,sedevacantism. Not the lay faithful nor even priests or bishops who head these groups. These folks are trying to remain Catholic in the face of an unprecedented and impossible problem. Who is right? Each of these positions runs into problems because those in the seats of power are not fulfilling their ministry either by sin or by apostasy or both. But ostensibly the hierarchy divides the faith and the authority of the church and they then force the faithful to pick a side. It’s exhausting and an immense cross for the faithful.
Yes, you are right; but a s long as I do not know 100% that we have a false pope I have to stay in this church. I think GOD lets it happen; who am I that I can say I will know better than him.
@Anthony November Good points. View it this way, the degree of merit on the part of the sheep who remain in the Bark of Peter is in direct proportion to the degree of scandal in the shepherds. There is much potential merit in remaining steadfast in the Bark and suffering with Christ.
For people that have a strong online presence I think the temptation to take the safe route usually wins out. What I see is this: The sedes hate the SSPX, the NO church hates the SSPX,the FSSP and the approved Latin Mass communities hate the SSPX, so they must be doing it right! May God Bless and Our Lady protect the SSPX
Staying in obedience to the enemies of Faith is false obedience which leads to perdition
I think Mother Miriam’s point is more nuanced than “obey everything the Pope says.” She explicitly says, “in everything but sin.” That reflects a longstanding Catholic principle: legitimate authority deserves obedience within its proper sphere, but no one may command what is contrary to God’s law.
History bears this out. St. Athanasius, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Francis of Assisi, and St. Teresa of Ávila all defended the faith, corrected abuses, and even challenged popes or church leaders when necessary. Yet they did so as faithful sons and daughters of the Church, never by rejecting the office Christ established.
The real question is not whether Catholics may resist error. Of course they must. The question is whether that resistance is offered in fidelity to the Church Christ founded or in a way that weakens the visible unity He prayed for.
The saints consistently chose the harder path of reform from within.
She has flipped before on controversial topics
I use to try hard to get her to understand what is going on. Not sure she ever got the messages because there are others who control her channel. Comments etc. After a few months I gave up. this was years ago when she first started her channel. Before you know it, she is in favor the SSPX. Now back again to condemning them. She sounds very much like a prot. She was an atheist jew before she converted. Some people can't let go of their past I guess. Just like Taylor Marshall. A real loser.